Why are people so against vegetarianism?

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Re: Why are people so against vegetarianism?

Postby Conservationist on Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:52 pm

tigerlily78 wrote:The warning was given in both "forum help" and a thread that was locked in Everything Else, Basically explaining that you (and others in one case) need to show some amount of respect and courtesy to other people or you can go ahead and leave, because we are not going to tolerate rudeness from a few who in turn create hostility in the whole forum.


You did not cite what you considered "rude," nor did you define it. There was a vague message in a locked thread and when I asked for clarification, you did not provide it.

I'm fine with the community.

I think you need however to be clear what you expect or people are going to assume, correctly, that you're administering on personal whim -- and simply banishing those you disagree with.

At least in several cases here, I've seen this pattern:

Person 1: Here's my idea.
Person 2: That disagrees with the prevailing idea around here!

A group of people then berate Person 1. He or she finally responds with a cynical comment, and is accused of being rude or disrespectful.

Classic passive aggression.

Now that kind of abuse of authority -- we wouldn't want to see that here. Do we agree?
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Re: Why are people so against vegetarianism?

Postby tigerlily78 on Sat Oct 31, 2009 2:12 pm

Conservationist wrote:
I think you need however to be clear what you expect or people are going to assume, correctly, that you're administering on personal whim -- and simply banishing those you disagree with.

At least in several cases here, I've seen this pattern:

Person 1: Here's my idea.
Person 2: That disagrees with the prevailing idea around here!

A group of people then berate Person 1. He or she finally responds with a cynical comment, and is accused of being rude or disrespectful.

Classic passive aggression.

Now that kind of abuse of authority -- we wouldn't want to see that here. Do we agree?


Maybe you see the pattern that way. What I see is someone who comes on board and questions every statement, doesn't take the time to follow up on the source materials provided, and continues to argue using expressions like "fallacy" "ad hominem" and "straw man" because that makes them sound better educated... when in fact they are merely holding back from making any statement of their own to avoid being put under the same magnifying glass and held to providing their own evidence.

It becomes a waste of other people's time to spoon feed the few who will never rethink their perspective anyway. I think the bulk of the community would prefer that I "abuse" my power and maintain the level of openness, flow of discussion, and civility of the forum.

You may recall I defended your right to free speech when you first arrived here, but we are not going to tolerate your negativity if it makes the forum a miserable experience for everyone else.

We do have a handful of other dissidents here on TH who manage to defend their point of view without talking down to everyone else and offending people, it isn't impossible. They probably make an effort though instead of making excuses for their own poor judgement.
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Re: Why are people so against vegetarianism?

Postby idahogev on Sat Oct 31, 2009 2:38 pm

SgtMaj wrote:Only if we (all people on the planet) curb population growth. If we do that, then it had a tremendous impact, if not, then doing so only helps us remain overpopulated that much longer, which personally, I'm kinda looking forward to the population crash because I think we're already grossly overpopulated and that nature can only begin to recover once human populations decline significantly.


Ok.

I don't really like violence and so I'd much rather see a 'softer landing' to the human population issue.
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Re: Why are people so against vegetarianism?

Postby SgtMaj on Sun Nov 01, 2009 7:04 am

idahogev wrote:
SgtMaj wrote:Only if we (all people on the planet) curb population growth. If we do that, then it had a tremendous impact, if not, then doing so only helps us remain overpopulated that much longer, which personally, I'm kinda looking forward to the population crash because I think we're already grossly overpopulated and that nature can only begin to recover once human populations decline significantly.


Ok.

I don't really like violence and so I'd much rather see a 'softer landing' to the human population issue.


Wouldn't we all? But that can ONLY come from the entire world voluntarily curbing population growth, and as you may have noticed, getting enough people on board with voluntarily curbing population growth in order to both stop and reverse the growth rate is seemingly impossible, at least at this juncture. I suspect that just like every other species on Earth, humans as a whole will fail to take action until we come to a point of mass famine and population crash before the cycle starts over again (likely without human kind having learned anything meaningful from the experience).
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Re: Why are people so against vegetarianism?

Postby Conservationist on Sun Nov 01, 2009 7:17 am

tigerlily78 wrote:What I see is someone who comes on board and questions every statement, doesn't take the time to follow up on the source materials provided, and continues to argue using expressions like "fallacy" "ad hominem" and "straw man" because that makes them sound better educated.


Let's look at these one by one:

1. Questions every statement. Every statement? Really? And how is questioning bad?
2. Doesn't take the time to follow up on the source materials provided. Every time? And aren't you assuming those source materials are valid?
3. Continues to argue using expressions like fallacy, ad hominem and straw man. These are legitimate expressions in a debate, or do you disagree?
4. Because that makes them sound better educated. Are you sure you're not guessing at motivation here?

.. when in fact they are merely holding back from making any statement of their own to avoid being put under the same magnifying glass and held to providing their own evidence.


Again, how do you know? Are you sure you're not projecting?

I'll make my position clear: if someone presents to me bad evidence, I'm going to bypass it. I am not interested in wasting my time debating bad sources or biased sources. However, I will also avoid a source attack, because that's perceived as aggression. Do you agree?

It becomes a waste of other people's time to spoon feed the few who will never rethink their perspective anyway.


That's a pretty nasty thing to say. Do you have evidence that I have never rethought my perspective?

I think the bulk of the community would prefer that I "abuse" my power and maintain the level of openness, flow of discussion, and civility of the forum.


You have yet to show that any of the above are threatening those.

You may recall I defended your right to free speech when you first arrived here, but we are not going to tolerate your negativity if it makes the forum a miserable experience for everyone else.

We do have a handful of other dissidents here on TH who manage to defend their point of view without talking down to everyone else and offending people, it isn't impossible. They probably make an effort though instead of making excuses for their own poor judgement.


What is the crime here?

"Talking down to everyone else and offending people" -- please provide proof that I've talked down to everyone, and also define talk down.

If someone presents to me an innaccurate or badly sourced idea and I don't immediately take it as fact, is that talking down?

If you can't define those, it seems to me the crime is offending assumptions of the group, and that you're threatening to use moderator power to crush certain dissent and not others.

Why would you do that?
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Re: Why are people so against vegetarianism?

Postby Conservationist on Sun Nov 01, 2009 7:19 am

SgtMaj wrote:But that can ONLY come from the entire world voluntarily curbing population growth, and as you may have noticed, getting enough people on board with voluntarily curbing population growth in order to both stop and reverse the growth rate is seemingly impossible, at least at this juncture.


And this is the core of the problem.

People aren't going to curb population growth, or stop buying SUVs, unless forced to.

And by the time nature gets around to forcing them -- well, things will be too far gone.

The bigger problem is that it's not just in the USA, but the whole world.

Population growth is increasing, not decreasing. Here's a great resource:

http://www.reddit.com/r/overpopulation

Some quality articles get posted there daily about the overpopulation issue.
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