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Nihilism, Futurist Traditionalism and Conservationism

Musical objectivity

17 06 12 - 03:18

On the various music blogs and writings associated with this site, we have always argued that musical quality can be measured objectively, while affinity for specific isolated traits can be measured subjectively. For proof of this, we have always pointed out that most music, if displayed on a scatter diagram, would show remarkable musical similarity and that the quality occurs in those that deviate from this mediocre norm.

Fortunately, someone is at work making that scatter diagram.

sixteen comments

adrian
anus is in no position to tell anyone what good music is..... adrian - 17-06-’12 06:41
TD
Nature is in no position to dictate who survives.. TD - 17-06-’12 09:33
Bent Cuntens
"... and that the quality occurs in those that deviate from this mediocre norm"

... which, as you said, is all just like your opinion, man. Bent Cuntens - 17-06-’12 11:49
Hint: starts with an h. ends in -ster.
"the quality occurs in those that deviate from this mediocre norm."

So different = better eh?

And what do we call people who think like that? Hint: starts with an h. ends in -ster. - 17-06-’12 18:38
adrian
fuck anus.com, you fuckers are just wannabes anyway.... adrian - 18-06-’12 03:54
adrian
I made a SPLATTER diagram of all the piss and cum guys have splattered over my face and ass... adrian - 18-06-’12 12:04
<span class='registered'>Franz K</span>
yes, different from oversaturated pop music = better.
lets look at the genres: classical, jazz, blues, metal. blues already has a relatively strict structure, so it doesn't really belong here, but it's different from pop. moreover, rock shouldn't be included in the 'different' category because there's a very thin line between rock and pop, at least the progressions are the same. rap is built on repetition of simple phrases and beats so it must be excluded.

the main underlying 'dimension' connecting classical music, jazz, and many forms of metal is progressiveness. what is called prog rock or prog metal is simply an emphasis on using DIFFERENT progressions than common ones. all metal has such an attitude not only because metal generally disregards rules, but because the third interval, which defines whether a chord is major or minor, doesn't sound good with a distorted guitar sound: the many different frequencies of the same notes of a single e.g. major chord clash horribly when played with distortion. also, metal uses the lower range on the instruments with heavy use of chromaticism. a 'pleasing', pop sound cannot fit with real-world messages metal songs are often conveying!

when it comes to eliciting emotions other than simply feeling good or sad, like pop does, but everything from horror, sorrow, pride, or even AWE, when it comes to being ART, there is no place for the common progressions of pop music.
i disagree with fully objectively measuring how good music is, but its musical worth can be estimated fairly accurately, I suppose. Franz K - 18-06-’12 12:57
Get it yet?
"yes, different from oversaturated pop music = better."

My ass makes a sound that's pretty different from pop music. I suppose that's artistic gold. Get it yet? - 19-06-’12 00:06
Franz defended ANUS against logic before it was cool.
"when it comes to eliciting emotions other than simply feeling good or sad, like pop does, but everything from horror, sorrow, pride, or even AWE, when it comes to being ART, there is no place for the common progressions of pop music."

Ok, first, sad and sorrow are the same thing. Second, it's pretty dubious that any type of music can make you actually feel afraid, except maybe by the lyrics, which could easily be grafted onto pop progressions too. Ditto with pride. And I don't exactly know how music can make you feel awe, unless you mean awe at the musicians' skill, in which case it's really not at the emotional level anymore.

"all metal has such an attitude"

Not all metal. A lot of it, especially the early stuff, uses progressions just as common and simple as any other rock music, often blues progressions.

"rap is built on repetition of simple phrases and beats so it must be excluded."

No idea what you're talking about. I'm not a fan of rap, but it has its complexity as well. It's just not found in melody or harmony, but rather complexity of rhythm and rhyme pattern. Franz defended ANUS against logic before it was cool. - 19-06-’12 00:13
<span class='registered'>Franz K</span>
"Ok, first, sad and sorrow are the same thing." 

I meant unhappy when I said sad, not sorrowful. Sorrow is a deep distress, caused by loss, death, abandonment. See entire romantic period in classical music. Being unhappy is "Baby don't hurt me no more".

"Second, it’s pretty dubious that any type of music can make you actually feel afraid, except maybe by the lyrics, which could easily be grafted onto pop progressions too. Ditto with pride. And I don’t exactly know how music can make you feel awe, unless you mean awe at the musicians’ skill, in which case it’s really not at the emotional level anymore."

Music can convey all emotions, I can't understand why you're denying her that. I feel proud when I hear my national anthem, for example. If you want awe, listen to Mahler's Fifth symphony. It hasn't got mad blistering violin solos, but makes you just stop and just be amazed. In awe of the music, not the musicians.

"Not all metal. A lot of it, especially the early stuff..."
That was back when hard rock an metal weren't as distinct. But take for instance Iron Maiden, Overkill, any 'early stuff', and you'll find progressive tendencies.

“rap is built on repetition of simple phrases and beats so it must be excluded.”
"complexity of rhythm and rhyme pattern."

Progression means harmony, not rhythm, I'm sorry. I don't deny rap other possible complexities, but harmonically it's as simple as music gets: ask any pro musician. Franz K - 19-06-’12 09:40
<span class='registered'>Franz K</span>
You could draw a parallel to science. Science isn't logical: if it were, experiments and hypotheses wouldn't be needed, as you could deduce everything. The great discoveries happen when we do something different. It's the same with music: new genres, new styles, they all emerge when someone mixes things up. That's the way music evolves.

And pop is logical, just take a look at that scatter chart up there.
Stop trolling and start thinking! Don't simply try to disagree everywhere with me in a very anal retentive mannor. Do you expect me to listen to your ideas and thoughts if you automatically shun mine? Franz K - 19-06-’12 09:50
Franny
Gotta be honest, while I disagree fervently with ANUS on its political views, damn it all if the DLA isn't one of the best, most academic sources of metal on the net. Franny - 19-06-’12 19:20
This whole conversation will be deleted.
"Sorrow is a deep distress, caused by loss, death, abandonment."

And pop is incapable of conveying that? I doubt that.

"Music can convey all emotions, I can’t understand why you’re denying her that."

Convey them, yes. That is, convey that the author, or the character he portrays, feels that emotion. You said "elicit" before, meaning to actually cause the listener to feel them. I think there's a difference between the two.

"I feel proud when I hear my national anthem, for example. "

There's a lot of association going on there. The lyrics, for one thing. If you took out the lyrics and you never knew it was the official anthem of the country, and heard it for the first time at 30, I doubt you'd feel the same kind of pride.

"It hasn’t got mad blistering violin solos, but makes you just stop and just be amazed. In awe of the music, not the musicians."

Yes, a well-written song can leave you in awe. But I don't think that belongs in the emotional side of a piece, because it has nothing to do with the emotions inherent in the piece.

But awe is not unheard of in pop music either. Can you really help being in awe of Mariah Carrey's vocal range? Or Mick Jagger's showmanship?

"That was back when hard rock an metal weren’t as distinct. But take for instance Iron Maiden, Overkill, any ‘early stuff’, and you’ll find progressive tendencies."

Yes, you're right. But the same can be find in many non-metallic rock genres, such as progressive rock of the ELP and Genesis type. I don't know if you'd call them "pop", but they're rock, and they're not metal.

"Progression means harmony, not rhythm, I’m sorry. I don’t deny rap other possible complexities, but harmonically it’s as simple as music gets: ask any pro musician."

Didn't I already say that? But the question is whether it should be dismissed for consideration as being objectively good music. And for that question, you can't dismiss the complexities it does have.

"It’s the same with music: new genres, new styles, they all emerge when someone mixes things up. That’s the way music evolves."

Agreed.

"And pop is logical, just take a look at that scatter chart up there."

The chart is very preliminary. Almost all of the work is on single chords; very little on chord progression. It does not show what the OP claims it shows. This is a common problem with the ANUS editors.

"Don’t simply try to disagree everywhere with me in a very anal retentive mannor. Do you expect me to listen to your ideas and thoughts if you automatically shun mine?"

I hope you find the agreements above satisfactory then. I generally disagree with only what I generally find unconvincing. This whole conversation will be deleted. - 19-06-’12 20:59
<span class='registered'>Franz K</span>
I agree. But I see the problem with pop being its same-ness. Context is essential! If you removed lyrics from the national anthem and played it to someone who's never heard of it before, I doubt he'd feel proud, but also, if you took a few pop songs and did the same, he wouldn't think of it as bad music. I disagree that you can objectively measure 'goodness' of a song, but you could measure its worth, perhaps? But there are millions of pop songs! They aren't unique, and lose their value just as copies of a painting lose value, or stamps do when there are too many of them. Rare stamps are worth absurd amounts of money!

No art should be taken out of context. It has a lot to do about the age it was created in, doesn't it? But you can't measure context.

Personally, as a nihilist, I can't understand how any nihilist can say anything can really be measured objectively. Perspectivism is a big part of Nietzsche's philosophy, and my personal. Speaking in absolutes like OP does is... odd, coming from a nihilst. A civilised conversation on the net is a rarity, I have to say. Oh, and why should this whole conversation be deleted? Franz K - 20-06-’12 07:21
<span class='registered'>Franz K</span>
And just one more thing. I could take the context thought ad absurdum: what if you played music to a hypothetical non-human sentient being, who had ears and the same aural range like us? Would it find our music 'good' or 'bad'? Art is very subjective, isn't it? Franz K - 20-06-’12 07:25
Anal Rapist
Don't be a blockhead. There are no notes that are pleasant-sounding in and of themselves. They're just data. If some aliens with spherical ears had a different tonal system, we'd parse it as data and find beauty in the patterns not the textures. Anal Rapist (Email ) - 20-06-’12 08:07


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